Yeah I know we're likely not having an election this spring, but a funny thing happened while Stephane Dion was touting this kick-ass new policy that's sure to spell doom for the Liberals if we have an election anytime this year.
I'm not the only one who feels this way either.
Okay, look. Gas is $1.31/litre this morning in Saskatoon. It's a helluva lot more in other parts of Canada. (Did I mention that there's more Liberal MP's than Tory MP's in some of these provinces? Can you say "backlash"? I sure can.)
This policy is exceedingly complicated (read: difficult for voters to get their heads around while we're cursing to high heaven as we fill the tanks of our SUV's, Minivans and Motorhomes at Petro Canada) and will do nothing to address the primary issue that creates a knee-jerk reaction in the hearts and minds of voters: THE PRICE AT THE PUMPS!! What part of this reality does Mr. Dion not understand?
I'm all for sweeping visionary policies that capture the public's imagination, but baby, this ain't it. An 18 cent/gallon increase in taxes wiped out Joe Clark's minority government back in 1979 - a carbon tax that actually increases the price at the pumps will wipe out the Liberals - count on it. Adopt this policy, and Liberals will hand the Tories their coveted majority.
Now then, let's say it all together... "When people can't afford to drive their cars to work each day, the price at the pumps trumps environmental concerns." You know you want to. If you don't, please, walk into the light... all are welcome!
Thursday, May 8, 2008
How to ensure election defeat: Liberal style
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24 comments:
It is "working" (ie not unpopular) in BC.
The stupid "gas tax holiday" idea help Clinton lose in the USA.
We have got to change the dialog on climate change and tax policy is litterally where the rubber hits the road. so look out grumpy, it is coming.
I think Liberals are completely out of touch with the average person on this issue. A tax is a tax and people hate taxes. This is a meat and potatoes issue that impacts ALL Canadians. People have trouble getting their heads around the complexities of a carbon tax and emission trading, they do know, however that it costs a shit pile of money to get to work each day and voters are getting pissed.
The tax will NOT be on gas. It will cover such things as home heating oil. ANd it isn't just B.C. and Que. have such a thing. In ALberta they call it, I believe, a "fund". Polluters pay into it. But its just a tax by another name.
From some of the potential details, released today, the carbon policy won't come with a tax on gasoline. Your point is mute.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080508.wcarbon08/BNStory/National/home
You are also mischaracterizing this initiative, it comes with tax CUTS too. Besides, we actually have a practical example, as opposed to your theoretical on what COULD happen- I haven't seen any riots in the streets in B.C, nor does Campbell appear to be losing support. That's the real world, that isn't "out of touch". People can scream and rant, but the bottomline, the idea is already reality, and the reaction is fine.
Take it from the Brits, who are years ahead of Canada in the global warming fight:
''A survey last month of 2,002 British adults by the respected polling firm Opinium Research found:
- 72% are unwilling to pay higher taxes to fight climate change.
- 67% believe the government's green agenda is simply a ploy to raise taxes.''
...Britain's Daily Express this week reported a new government study concludes Labour's latest round of green initiatives alone will cost the average British family more than 3,000 pounds (about $5,945 Cdn), trying to reach a long-term GHG reduction target of 60% below 1990 levels by 2050, which many experts now believe is "unachievable."
http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Goldstein_Lorrie/2008/05/08/5504801-sun.php
This is a carbon tax - not a gasoline tax. Stop falling for Conservative propaganda.
Warren Kinsella isn't falling for the Conservative Propaganda and even he thinks this is a dumb idea. As Andrew Coyne noted last year in one of his opinion columns: the environment is a soft election issue. I tend to agree. Finally, a tax is a tax is a tax is a tax. We are paying shitpiles of money right now for the price at the pumps. We don't want a FUCKING income tax cut to pass any tax savings from Dion's plan, we want relief NOW for crying out loud. What part of that aren't guys like Dion getting?
When people can't afford to drive their cars to work each day, that impacts everyone in a helluva big way. Liberals are going to lose big on this if this policy becomes an election plank. Count on it. Finally, it's pretty bad when the freaking NDP is the only party concerned about the price at the pumps.
Ya Jack Layton will save us all. His NDP gov't will lower gas prices and show the rest of the world how it is done. (in an alternate universe)
...............
If people can't afford to drive to work ... they will have to car pool, take the bus or whatever and be pleased to see income taxes fall.
I know you can't see it but hey - you voted for Harper, duh.
And the NDP has not come out in favor of a carbon tax, they prefer cap and trade.
Dion will have to give lectures across Canada to explain how a tax is not a tax,
how you add hundreds/thousands of dollars onto the cost of living and get a $300 tax break (maybe) to cover it.
How does Dion's carbon tax differ from raising the GST? I don't see the difference, same tax by a different name.
As a Conservative, I support cutting wasteful government spending.
How much explaining does this one sentence need:
'shift' government Fat to an Enviro Tax.
>>If people can't afford to drive to work ... they will have to car pool, take the bus or whatever and be pleased to see income taxes fall.<<
If people can't afford to drive to work, they will VOTE for the party that gets them cheap gas. This is a no brainer.
According to news releases, the carbon tax proposal could generate $17 B, and Dion will give back Cdn taxpayers $10-13 B.
Is that an 'annual' cost of $4-7 BILLION ??
Taking that much money out of taxpayers hands will hurt the economy...big time.
grumpy
they may VOTE for a party the PROMISES them cheap gas
but no party can GET them cheap gas as you should know ... otherwise please explain how
oh and maybe voters are not as dumb as they used to be and will not vote for stupid promises ... check out:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Canada/1054671.html
People will vote for the party that offers the best way to get people to save at the pumps. Yep, they might be lied to, but then that's basically what political promises are: spin, lies and BS.
"If people can't afford to drive to work, they will VOTE for the party that gets them cheap gas. This is a no brainer."
Grumpy we just had a test of this in Indiana and North Carolina. Obama and Clinton made this one of the main issues in their ads leading up to the election. Clinton vowed to lower gas prices and Obama did not. Your theory was not supported to say the least.
Wilson: You are just grasping at straws. If the plan is designed to be revenue neutral, it will be revenue neutral, you can't pick out selective snippets from a news article to make your case without the actual real numbers being on the table.
Grumpy,
If what you say is true, then Harper should attach a gas tax holiday for the summer to the budget bill and dare Dion to bring the government down.
>>If what you say is true, then Harper should attach a gas tax holiday for the summer to the budget bill and dare Dion to bring the government down.<<
I concur.
">>If what you say is true, then Harper should attach a gas tax holiday for the summer to the budget bill and dare Dion to bring the government down.<<
I concur."
I don't want to be presumptuous but I think Mushroom was joking.
The gas tax raises $5 billion a year for the federal government.
A gas tax holiday for the 4 months of the summer then would be taking about $1.67 billion out of the Treasury.
So Yes Tories I strongly encourage you to take this approach, especially after the surplus is now all but gone.
To take this approach would say
A) We don't care about going back into deficit
B) We don't care at all about cities who rely on the money that comes from the gas tax (what with all the crumbling infrastructure they don't need it)
I would be absolutely floored though if the Conservatives were foolish enough to do this. I don't think they will though.
Danielle,
The thing about the Cons (and most neo-cons) is that they are not rational and want to stay in power through any means possible.
There is no rationale to Ralph Klein and Mike Harris. I can list George W. Bush and Nicolas Sarkozy as the same.
Note also that the Cons can justify this as the surplus is now at 8 billion dollars. This is what the accounting numbers suggest, but we don't know if the Finance Department fudges the figures.
Besides if you fudge figures already, who cares about the damage caused by a gas tax holiday????
One of Harper's weakness is that he lacks Mike Harris' populist streak. A four month gas tax holiday dependent on winning a majority may be a prescription for victory. It helps Harper return to the party's Social Credit origins: you don't have to understand us to vote for us.
Also allows Harper to throw Flaherty under the bus, after dismissing it today in Washington, DC. Machiavellian I know, but great politics to watch.
The tax will NOT be on gas. It will cover such things as home heating oil.
Yeah, because that is SO much better, jacking the heating bills of retired widows. Brainwave plan there, Liberal Supporter. I can't wait for Dion to push that during and election. Whats more, I can't wait for Harper to run with it, lol.
jacking the heating bills of retired widow
If it's revenue neutral, she'll get it back in tax credits. Facts be damned in Conservative advertising, though.
Take it from the Brits, who are years ahead of Canada in the global warming fight...
Well, the UK has done quite a bit to curb their greenhouse gases and is on track to meet their Kyoto targets. An article from early 2008 states they've reduced their emissions by 16.4% from their 1990 levels--with the cardon credits they're about 20.7% lower. There could be exhaustion on their end--what, you want us to do more?!
Canada's not even close to meeting the Kyoto targets, and there is a desire on people's parts to do something. The fact is as the article shows 61% of the population favors a carbon tax.
Here's an article on the Cons rejecting a carbon tax supported by environmentalists, public officials, and tax experts, simply because it's sounds like a "Liberal idea." Yes, since as Colbert said, "Facts have a Liberal bias."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080410.CARBON10/TPStory/Environment
Lol, indeed. In *addition* to the existing tax on gas (which ultimately trickles down to the poorest in the form of more expensive food/goods) we also need to tax heating fuels for homes because the people who live in worn down falling apart energy inefficient slum apartments should have taken the earth into account before living in the only housing they could afford. Immoral earth-hating demons I say. They should have thought about living somewhere warmer like Mexico before deciding to be poor.
A $17 billion carbon tax is extremely inflationary. All goods and services will increase regardless if there is a tax refund. It simply means prices go up and the government will give us some money back to help pay for it.
The ones it will affect the most are seniors on fixed income and lower income earners. They don't have lots of tax to give back but will still have to pay higher costs.
Until Dion gives specifics on his "plan" we can only speculate. At this point there are not a lot of selling features to it. Especially since a tax will not lower GHG, it will just cost us more to live.
"If people can't afford to drive to work ... they will have to car pool, take the bus or whatever and be pleased to see income taxes fall."
Thats fine for the "urban crowd" but what about all of those that don't have that luxury? You know, all those poor peasants who happen to live outside of the major metropolitan area's? I guess that falls under "or whatever" which is liberal for "who cares". This plan will fly about as well as a duck in a oil sands tailing pond. Get it through your sculls, Kyoto is not a scheme, it is a scam. Increase in CO2 follows temperature increases it does not drive it. CO2 is not a pollutant. How about we clean up the real pollutants of the planet and stop producing billions of tons of garbage every single day...
I am galled by the simple ignorance seen in this thread.
the price of oil is NOT controlled by the government.
As for carbon tax is concerned: Have any of you people actually been paying attention? There is NO global warming crisis... if anything, the trend is a potential global cooling. Million or billions of people could die faster and more convincingly, sooner, from global cooling.
The government in this country, regardless of what party, cannot effectively lower gas tax without fear of dropping revenue to a point of forcing the gov into deficit. Hello?...anybody home??? anybody with a brain in their head still paying attention?
Harper OR Dion has little wiggle-room to play with the fuel tax. A carbon tax, no mater how they spin it, is gonna cost us MORE. They can defer or deflect it somewhere else, but it is gonna COST us all SOMEWHERE else. My comment s not partisan, but reality. Add it to farm-fuel....food cost increases, add it to heating fuel, we all pay more in winter... add it to industry, they just pass on the cost to consumers.
There is no possible way to make Dion's carbon tax into anything near neutral. He will just defer the cost onto people who don't live in Ontario, or live outside Toronto. Not gonna work for the Libs.
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